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  • Rational SCCWE202G Glass Pane Bundle 87.01.415

     fixbear updated 1 year, 3 months ago 1 Member · 36 Posts
  • guest

    Member
    September 23, 2018 at 12:00 am

    I have a customer who has shattered their third inner most glass pane bundle on their Rational SCCWE202G this is the newer design with 2 inner removable tempered glass panels, it sits next to their 1 year older model which only has the single inner glass panel. Twice they have claimed the unit ran away and overheated causing the inner glass to shatter, but from all the literature I have read, the glass is rated to 1800 deg F, and would seem impossible for unit to ever approach this extreme, there is absolutely no deformity in any of the stainless interior, no discoloration whatsoever, which would be indicative of an  extreme overheat, nor has the high limit ever tripped. I personally believe they are impacting the inner glass panel causing it to shatter. I would like to know if anyone here has ever experienced repeated shattering of the newer Rational inner glass panels. 

  • fixbear

    Member
    September 23, 2018 at 12:14 pm

    If you have the time you can always piece it back together to determine if impact is the cause. But that can take hours. It will tell you where it started from.

     

    Thermo shocking can also shatter it if some form of cooler liquid hits a small area causing a sudden shrinkage in a small area and high stress’s in the glass…It would take a quick change in glass temperature that is uneven to cause. Like a wet towel or jacket sleeve touching hot glass. Been there, Done that.  Like using a kitchen towel to check a pan and the corner get’s into the cooking liquid.  As you put the pan back and go to close the oven that wet corner hit’s the glass. POP.

     

    Stress cracking is when one area of the glass changes temperature quicker than the rest or the mounting of the glass warps or tightens nu-equally. Or a twisting of the door with a aggressive chef closing it on a cart not all the way in or some foreign obstacle in the corner,  creating a temporary twist to the door. .

  • fixbear

    Member
    September 23, 2018 at 12:17 pm

    Perhaps Ectofix may have a bit more insight on the glass mounting and stress prevention.

  • ares

    Member
    September 23, 2018 at 2:54 pm

    Thanks, its really odd, brand new glass pane bundle installed 1 month ago, perfect alignment, unit is only 1 year old, receives moderate usage, breakage always seems to occur during odd hours, also seems like controller knob is constantly being knocked off which leads me to think theyre colliding with trolley. Wish I could get them to add camera coverage. 

  • ectofix

    Member
    September 23, 2018 at 5:55 pm

    What do I think caused it?

    Somebody forgot to remove the cart handle before they attempted to kick the door closed with their foot.

     

    I doubt you’ll ever get ANY of the kitchen staff to admit that they did something to break the glass.  FEW people are THAT honest.  So, the only way you could ever know what happened is if it was caught on camera.

     

    I can’t imagine moisture or temperature being a cause…unless they tried to cool down an extremely hot oven with the hand shower.  However, I think that glass is tough enough to handle even THAT (don’t tell anyone I said that).

    Nonetheless, I’ve instructed our Chefs to only use the “cool down” mode and to NEVER blast water inside the oven or on the door when it’s at temperatures any higher than STEAM mode temperature.

     

    I DO suggest taking a look at the condition of the mobile oven racks too – just as a matter of regular maintenance.  The corners down around the where it meets the pre-heat mechanism (the spring-loaded flap at the lower part of the door).  Those corners on the cart get bent, so you’ll need to watch for that and straighten the out so they’re flat again.

    Will THAT cause the glass to break?  Very unlikely.

  • ectofix

    Member
    September 23, 2018 at 5:58 pm

    ares wrote:

     

    Thanks, its really odd, brand new glass pane bundle installed 1 month ago, perfect alignment, unit is only 1 year old, receives moderate usage, breakage always seems to occur during odd hours, also seems like controller knob is constantly being knocked off which leads me to think theyre colliding with trolley. Wish I could get them to add camera coverage. 

     

    We are constantly replacing pulse generators for that.

     

    CAMERAS?  I’ve begging for that for years!

  • fixbear

    Member
    September 23, 2018 at 8:21 pm

    And I’m willing to bet it is the same operator that it breaks on. Let alone it’s at night when there is minimal supervision.

  • guest

    Member
    September 29, 2018 at 5:35 am

    This is tempered glass and is subject to the same cautions, when using it. As ecto fix said you probably will never get anyone to admit they did it. I have a pretty good relationship with my cooks. They know that I won’t turn them in, if they do something stupid….once. But twice? 

    When I went to their (Rational) class, one thing they mentioned was to NEVER use scrubby pads or steel wool, to clean any of the glass. They said that it creates micro scratches in the glass which weakens the temper and would cause the glass to fail. I have never seen this myself, but given they have to pay for it when under warranty, I’m sure they have studied this thoroughly. Probably not the case here but something to consider besides the usual hi-jinx that goes on in a kitchen.

  • bush

    Member
    October 1, 2018 at 5:55 pm

    ARES, you may want to reach out to your local Rational service agent.  They will most likely be able to help you out with this situation.  Save all the stainless side rails for inspection.   Be sure to use a ‘shop-vac’ to remove all of the glass shards, as well as capturing any glass making it past the drain screen. If you have any doubt, after thoroughly cleaning the cabinet interior, trolley cart, and air baffle plate, hose down the interior, then open the quench box. You can shine a light in there to look for any shiny remnants of glass.  Better safe than sorry… if a glass nugget gets pushed thru the wash pump and lodges in the cleanjet exit tube you will certainly regret it!   Most likely you will have to replace the door and trolley gasket since they are prone to trapping those fine glass particles. 

  • ares

    Member
    October 23, 2018 at 4:32 pm

    Sorry it has taken me so long to thank you all for your advice, had long conversations with Rational regarding glass and they pretty much reinforced what I thought and what you all said regarding glass. There are 2 of these SCC units located at Fenway Park, and it has been understandably hectic here last couple weeks. This is the latest gem I have encountered and would be curious if anyone else has ever found a broken product probe missiled through the clean jet pump? Honestly cannot make this stuff up.

  • fixbear

    Member
    October 23, 2018 at 6:24 pm

    can honestly say no on that.  And by the housing damage it had a bit of power behind it.

  • ectofix

    Member
    October 23, 2018 at 6:31 pm

    Uh…NO!  Definitely a new one on me.

     

    You’re an in-house tech, RIGHT? So, your establishment is much like mine. A place that’s a TRUE testing ground for the equipment’s durability. 

    Put a forty-thousand dollar oven at the mercy of culinary staff bearing absolutely NO fear of repercussions (i.e., repair bills) for the abuse/neglect that they can impose upon said equipment. Rest assured that they’ll find the most UNIQUE ways to break it!

  • ectofix

    Member
    October 23, 2018 at 6:36 pm

    Those little plastic water pumps ARE powerful.  Being not much bigger than the size of your fist, they’ll pump four gallons of water in about twenty seconds.

  • Olivero

    Member
    October 25, 2018 at 5:26 pm

    Hahhaa! 

     

    I’m not the only one!

     

    Sometimes I feel I am the only one that runs into these things that just leave me flabbergasted. The ones where you just shake your head and drag the part to the shop to weld it back together, or cry, or both.

     

    No, for once I can say I haven’t seen that, that’s incredible.

     

    Ectofix & Fixbear, it’s not just us!

  • fixbear

    Member
    October 25, 2018 at 6:03 pm

    I once had a rental hall that let anyone come in and cook for their function.  Some had chef’s, and some did not.  But It was the ones that thought they were chef’s that did the most destruction to the equipment.  And when things went bad it was always” I didn’t Know That”.   He only operated about a year and a half before loosing his shirt.  Can’t say I didn’t warn him.  But when a well equipped commercial kitchen is left vacant for weeks at a time and someone comes in to cook for a single function,  You can imagine the condition it winds up as.  And many had never seen a steam kettle or steamer.  Let alone a Alto-Sham and stacked convection ovens. 

  • ares

    Member
    November 6, 2018 at 4:53 pm

    The funny thing is I have another stadium account that has a 20 year old Alto Convitherm thats still chugging along peacefully, not bothering anyone.

  • Olivero

    Member
    November 6, 2018 at 5:50 pm

    What’s the model # on it?

  • fixbear

    Member
    November 6, 2018 at 6:23 pm

    They have always been one of the best.

  • Olivero

    Member
    November 6, 2018 at 6:54 pm

    I disagree with that statement

  • fixbear

    Member
    November 6, 2018 at 7:27 pm

    Across the board, Altro Sham over the years has had the best longivity.  Let’s face it, none are perfect.  They also were the first combi.

  • Olivero

    Member
    November 6, 2018 at 7:34 pm

    I like Alto-Shaam way more than Rational and Convotherm, I’ve worked a lot on Convotherm and the new one is horrific, the older one is okay.

     

    I never worked on Alto-shaam but went to a testing place and got to see inside the electrical compartment of one and they are NICE. Rational is like a rats nest on the one I worked on, impossible to find anything easily.

  • fixbear

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 6:23 am

    Both users and tech’s don’t appreciate what it takes to make and control a Combi-Oven.  Your trying to contain steam and go to higher temperatures at the same time.  And trying to hold a specific temp as well.  Each fights the other.  Now add to that cooking grease and loose material flying around, highly varying intake air quality, wildly humidity changes. and sudden drops of all from product checks. Requiring quick recovery of heat and moisture without overshoot.  Yet it has to be energy efficient. Low on maintenance, safe, and rugged enough to withstand some abuse.  All while keeping the price where someone will buy it.  It also has to be adaptable to different markets and conform with each countries regulations.   It’s a wonder we have any of them.

  • Olivero

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 8:48 am

    It’s not that I don’t appreciate them, they are complex and I’m sure it’s not easy to do and takes a lot of time to come up with, doesn’t justify crappy design and poor performance as well as problems that should have been caught in testing but wasn’t, things like that.

     

    It’s not easy to make a GP superbike either, takes a lot of design, trial and erroor, but if there’s a problem, it’s not as forgiving, I’m sure the guy on it won’t appreciate it so much if it goes wrong but will if it goes well.

     

    I think these oven’s and equipment in general is the same thing, there’s a certain standard that has to be met, and if you aren’t doing it, then your not cutting it and your rep will suffer.

     

    Cleveland’s KGL kettle’s is another example, they seem like a total nightmare to get into the combustion chamber on if you have them somewhat side by side, but I’ve never needed to and for that operation over the last 5 years (they’ve still had problems) I would highly recommend them to anyone.

  • ectofix

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 6:24 pm

    fixbear wrote:

     

    Across the board, Altro Sham over the years has had the best longivity.  Let’s face it, none are perfect.  They also were the first combi.

    Combi-ovens are a European invention.  Both, RATIONAL (1973) and CONVOTHERM (1976), make claims that they were first.

    As I understand it, ALTO-SHAAM marketed THEIR ovens as “Combitherm” beginning in 1980, but were actually re-badged Convotherm ovens.  Alto-Shaam had partnered with Convotherm to do that.  In 2004,  Alto-Shaam purchased the rights to the technology and continued production here in the U.S. under the Combitherm model line.

     

    Back in the ’90s and early 2000s, virtually ALL combi-ovens sold in the U.S. were simply rebadged European-made ovens. 

    • CLEVELAND combi-ovens were once made by LAINOX.
    • MARKET FORGE combi-ovens were once made by FAGOR.

    That practice still holds true TODAY with:

    • BKI combi-ovens made by HOUNÖ and later – GIORIK.
    • HENNY PENNY combi-ovens made by RATIONAL.

     

    Up until the mid-2000s, the European ovens and their technology seemed overly complicated by U.S. standards.  Complex circuitry.  Earlier computerized controls with complicated/confusing user-interface, long turn-around times for repairs (parts coming from Europe), etc. – combi-oven sales never really took off. 

    At that time, the only combi-ovens that were prolific in MY market (when I was a field service tech) were GROEN combi-ovens.  They weren’t nearly as complex…and were designed/manufactured right here in the U.S. (Jackson MS).  I only saw them in schools and hospitals.  Places needing to prepare many identical meals at a time.  I never saw a restaurant using them.

     

    I think things changed when CLEVELAND partnered with CONVOTHERM (forming a new alliance in the U.S. market after parting ways with ALTO-SHAAM).  With newer electronics technology offering far greater user-interface, F-A-R improved customer support…PLUS – the ovens being made HERE in the U.S.A. (Cleveland OH), CLEVELAND’s reputation as a mainstream manufacturer reopened the door for U.S. customers to give those complex European-style ovens another try.

     

    So NOW – ten-fifteen years later, combi-ovens are EVERYWHERE. Walmart uses them.  Chain restaurants use them.  Just about ALL hospitals use them.  Just about ALL hotel and convention centers (like my place) use them.

     

    Funny that I still have YET to see any Chefs or cooks capitalizing on the pre-programmed cook cycles.  For THAT matter, I RARELY see ovens used in COMBI mode.

    I see them mainly used as just a steamer.  The ONLY use of them as convection oven (just HOT AIR) are the ones we have in our banquet kitchen – where they’re commonly preparing 3000 meals for a group being served lunch.

  • ectofix

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 6:40 pm

    fixbear wrote:

     

    …also has to be adaptable to different markets and conform with each countries regulations.   It’s a wonder we have any of them.

    I laughed at that one.

     

    Electrical power standards in Europe are 230v line-to-neutral.  So, their gas ovens would be designed for that.

    In the U.S., 120v line-to-neutral is used for gas ovens.

     

    To adapt their ovens to the U.S. market, Rational puts a 115v,15a cord on the oven, which feeds directly to a BIG step-up torroidial transformer for 230v.  Everything in the oven that requires 230v – so GETS it.

     

    I laughed because…I forgot about that one day while troubleshooting.  My misplaced BACKSIDE of my hand found a live terminal bearing that 230v.

    That HURT!  Definitely WASN’T a 120v tingle.

  • ectofix

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 7:24 pm

    olivero wrote:

     

    Cleveland’s KGL kettle’s is another example, they seem like a total nightmare to get into the combustion chamber on if you have them somewhat side by side, but I’ve never needed to and for that operation over the last 5 years (they’ve still had problems) I would highly recommend them to anyone.

    I LIVED that nightmare at my local Buca di Beppo.  Two KGL 40s (I think) side-by-side in a pit (a curb around them).

     

    The COMPLAINT? 

    When they turned on the LEFT kettle, it went…

    BOOM!!! (Uh…I verified that – 

    The tack-welds for can-shaped metal mantle burner had failed.  The burner’s metal mantle had fallen off and was laying in the bottom of the heat exchanger. 

    Without the designed diffusion of gas mixed with air -upon ignition…the burner CLEARLY wouldn’t work correctly.  I tagged it out, ordered a burner assembly and replaced it under warranty.

     

    Credit to PartsTOWN for the photo.

  • Olivero

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 7:27 pm

    Lol, way to call me out and make me look bad

     

    I guess any equipment can have these types of issues, just seems some more than others.

  • badbozo2315

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 7:53 pm

    > our banquet kitchen – where they’re commonly preparing 3000 meals for a group being served lunch.

     

    Again, EC, I don’t know how you sleep at night.

     

    “Yeah chef, the main gas regulator for the kitchens in this building just blew it’s diaphram, I shut the gas off, the plumber says the nearest replacement is in southern California. He’ll be back tuesday when it gets here. You Ok with that, right?”

     

     

  • Olivero

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 8:28 pm

    Lol, my kitchen does 2200 meals 3 times a day 7 days a week.

     

    They got spare equipment, an extra convection oven JUST IN CASE.

     

    If they didn’t plan for that with such a big turnout of food, they deserve the downtime, lol.

  • ectofix

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 9:36 pm

    Around this time last year (entering the Holiday season), our newest of four 202s went down for a blower motor.  It was warranty (then).  The service provider (Whaley) gave an ETA for the part as “one to two days”.

    I’ve never seen such stress in a Chef’s face.  They were serving 6000 the next day for lunch.  They had to employ ovens in other kitchens to get it done.

    That was our newest (of three) Rational SCC_WE 202s.

    Since then, with all the ovens out of warranty now, I’ve ordered just about EVERYTHING those White Efficiency ovens need.  Stocked and ready for whatever might cause them to go down.  So..I’m ready – I think.

    With the Care Control cleanings and my PMs, I’m quite happy with no OTHER problems they could have given me from their relentless usage.

  • ectofix

    Member
    November 7, 2018 at 9:40 pm

    I assure you that THAT would not happen here.  The clout and FUNDS that upper management has would have it here via FEDEX’s first plane out and at our door tomorrow morning.

  • fixbear

    Member
    November 8, 2018 at 1:49 pm

    I was referring to the first design of a high moisture pressurized oven back in the sixties that eventually turned into the combi’s. They were relay logic and several manufacturers tried to copy them unsuccessfully. 

  • fixbear

    Member
    November 8, 2018 at 1:56 pm

    Exactly why I use insulated gloves with 250V and up   When I was about 20, I got to see first hand what a little dust and high humidity will do with 480V  Blew a basketball size hole right threw the main transfer panel of my 1200KW generator. I was lucky to be about 10 ft to the side.

  • fixbear

    Member
    November 8, 2018 at 2:18 pm

    ectofix wrote:

     

    Funny that I still have YET to see any Chefs or cooks capitalizing on the pre-programmed cook cycles.  For THAT matter, I RARELY see ovens used in COMBI mode.

    I see them mainly used as just a steamer.  The ONLY use of them as convection oven (just HOT AIR) are the ones we have in our banquet kitchen – where they’re commonly preparing 3000 meals for a group being served lunch.

    That’s because of the lack of true training on them.  Especially formal training..  And when was the last time you saw a chef actually read a manual?  A rarity for sure.

  • badbozo2315

    Member
    November 8, 2018 at 6:34 pm

    > They were relay logic and several manufacturers

     

    I think I worked on one of those. Very early in my days, my boss showed me a combi like thing (brand lost to time) that had what seemed like dozens of SS relays with apparently translucent covers, all on one vertical board. The thing was, this board faced out towards the cooling slots in the side cover, and when the sun from the window *right* next to the unit shined in through those slots, at just the right angle, that machine would just go nuts. 

  • fixbear

    Member
    November 8, 2018 at 7:08 pm

    They basically had 2 or 3 control circuits that a temp probe measuring product temp would change from one temp to another with a hold timer.

     

    They had a stainless interior that was wrapped around the outside with a heating cable.  They were a real pain to change and took a lot of hours.

     

    Most were either scrapped or delegated to a air tight storage unit when the cable went open.

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